Curse

skillsbas8 · Nov 02, 2006, 10:58 PM // 22:58

Yeah, extinguish is a pretty simple counter.

Hyprodimus Prime · Nov 03, 2006, 12:14 AM // 00:14

How about Friged Armor lol SF is great, but it is quite easy to counter.

Patrograd · Nov 03, 2006, 10:34 AM // 10:34

I cant believe that people dont see the imbalance in this skill. I mean, 7 seconds of burning on a fast recharge skill that does even more damage to people burning and will reapply the burn pretty much as soon as the first burn is gone? The whole idea is imbalanced, triggering huge damage from your own burn. I can see that triggering damage from someone else's burn would be good, as it takes some skill, but this applies permanent burning (BURNING FFS!) with regular spike and you dont need to co-ordinate it with anyone for huge effect and massive, massive DPS. Roll an ele hero or two and go see for yourself how little co-ordination it takes

Combine this with a high specced "they're on fire" from a paragon somewhere for massive defensive utility. You dont need mega energy management either, as fire attune/glowing gaze reduces the energy cost hugely. Because you only need three or four max fire skills you can build in alot of other utility also on those eles. As a result of this utility the build (2 melee, 2 eles, para, 2 ,monks, flagger) splits well, defends well when needed, and applies just stupid amounts of pressure, even in split. there is no balance in that that I can see. Usually in a pressure build, if you are pushing hard you sacrifice your defence for the duration of the push, and if holding, you sacrifice much of your pressure for the duration of the hold. This build can do both at once and that is just plain wrong.

Yes extinguish can hold a chunk of the damage if it is perma spammed with HP, and you can strip the fire attune for a little hit to the energy for a few seconds, but these are only holding strats, you still cant actually damage them, and at VOD, they win, no two ways around it if they're a semi competent team as they are already specced into the strongest VOD attrib lines and only need a skill or two on each bar to maximise their potential in that situation.

if that doesnt convince you thats its imbalanced, why is everyone running it? And I mean, everyone.

JR · Nov 03, 2006, 11:18 AM // 11:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by Patrograd

I cant believe that people dont see the imbalance in this skill.

Having played one of these Eles yesterday I can't honestly agree with you. Although I would agree that the EW style of build is pretty broken, I think that is largely down to the Thumpers - and how well the build works as a pressure steam roller.

Searing Flames is pretty nuts, I will agree. I wouldn't disagree to maybe tweaking it's recharge a but... I don't honestly think it needs it though - it IS an elite - one of the very few viable damage elites in the Elementalist class.

The simple fact is that people have taken bucket loads of Warrior hate into GvG for a long time, because Warriors have always been the scary damage dealers. Is it such a surprise that when you take in a build with minimal caster hate that caster based damage will give you problems? Thanks to this one skill you can now run a fairly strong pressure Elementalist, as funny as it seems to say that. I honestly don't think it is that much of an amazing character though.

Avoid balling up, and have a few interrupts in your build. There is no build I know of that can't find slots for interrupts. If you can justify taking Wards, Blinding Flash, Aegis etc to counter Warriors then you can justify some slots to counter this new damage dealer.

The Searing Flames guy himself is pretty fragile energy wise. The Searing -> Glowing combo is really not great energy management, even when combined with Fire Attunement longer periods of spamming will wear you out.

The fact that these guys are so broken at VoD is not so much a problem with the skill it's self, rather that same old problem with the VoD NPC mechanic. It is still ridiculously easy to ball them up and nuke the hell out of them, despite hopes that the recent AI change would change that.

So powerfull? Yep. Broken? I don't think so.

Oh a GW forum · Nov 03, 2006, 11:22 AM // 11:22

two words

Frigid Armor

Wasteland Squidget · Nov 03, 2006, 11:23 AM // 11:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by Patrograd

I cant believe that people dont see the imbalance in this skill. I mean, 7 seconds of burning on a fast recharge skill that does even more damage to people burning and will reapply the burn pretty much as soon as the first burn is gone? The whole idea is imbalanced, triggering huge damage from your own burn. I can see that triggering damage from someone else's burn would be good, as it takes some skill, but this applies permanent burning (BURNING FFS!) with regular spike and you dont need to co-ordinate it with anyone for huge effect and massive, massive DPS. Roll an ele hero or two and go see for yourself how little co-ordination it takes

Combine this with a high specced "they're on fire" from a paragon somewhere for massive defensive utility. You dont need mega energy management either, as fire attune/glowing gaze reduces the energy cost hugely. Because you only need three or four max fire skills you can build in alot of other utility also on those eles. As a result of this utility the build (2 melee, 2 eles, para, 2 ,monks, flagger) splits well, defends well when needed, and applies just stupid amounts of pressure, even in split. there is no balance in that that I can see. Usually in a pressure build, if you are pushing hard you sacrifice your defence for the duration of the push, and if holding, you sacrifice much of your pressure for the duration of the hold. This build can do both at once and that is just plain wrong.

Yes extinguish can hold a chunk of the damage if it is perma spammed with HP, and you can strip the fire attune for a little hit to the energy for a few seconds, but these are only holding strats, you still cant actually damage them, and at VOD, they win, no two ways around it if they're a semi competent team as they are already specced into the strongest VOD attrib lines and only need a skill or two on each bar to maximise their potential in that situation.

if that doesnt convince you thats its imbalanced, why is everyone running it? And I mean, everyone.

We are not haven't run Searing Flames at all this season, and we've done pretty decently thus far. We've consistently beaten teams that are running Searing Flames eles, before and after VoD hits. They're a fragile midline caster without much defense, which means they'll often blow up at VoD before the NPCs even arrive. They can pull back into their own NPCs, but then they're the ones who get aggroed and ball up, while yours hit the flagstand and spread out.

I will say this though - if your powered heal Party is not safely spamming while several of these guys are beating on you, the other team's offense will overwhelm you almost immediately. Powered party is really necessary to control their damage. Extinguish also helps, though it's not as crucial. The same is true of any degen build, but this hits faster and tends to catch a lot of teams by suprise before they can bring their Heal Party into play, set up another flagrunner, ect. I'm sure EW applies a lot more pressure with it (we haven't faced them), but most teams running the build are beatable.

The current meta build is basically an ele equivilant of IWAY. It's all about overwhelming you before your defense knows what's happening. Keep the pressure on their offense and weather the initial storm and their monk's energy will break. The dual Searing + dual Thumper + EW spammer team has next to no off-monk defense (maybe wards and a trap or two defending the spirit), yet you claim they can't be damaged. It's not like Searing Flames eles have the energy to power out defensive skills in the same way Ether Prod eles can.

One thing I will grant for the fire ele trend is that it's easier to play than to counter. I can see it dominating some levels of play for that reason alone, but when both teams are playing well I don't think the build is as overpowered as you claim.

Symbol · Nov 03, 2006, 12:26 PM // 12:26

You seriously underestimate the amount of energy management needed to sustain searing flames. Glowing gaze and fire attunement is not nearly enough. You need to throw in GoLE in there before you can even come close to claiming that, and at that point half your bar is devoted to supporting one skill.

Lykan · Nov 03, 2006, 12:47 PM // 12:47

[sarcasm]
A sustainable 91 damage every 2 seconds? No theres no way that's imbalanced.
[/sarcasm]

And yes there are lots of counters im sure but there a only a small number you would want to fit into a 6/8 man team. Im pretty sure Winter/Mantra of Frost would work but I cant see that becoming the metagame yet. Dont just spam out counters without thinking please.

Quote:

two words

Frigid Armor

This is what I mean. So your going to run all characters with E/ or /E and devote one skill slot for each char in case you meet a SF build? Think please.

Symbol · Nov 03, 2006, 12:52 PM // 12:52

Quote:

A sustainable 91 damage every 2 seconds? No theres no way that's imbalanced.

119 every 3 seconds actually (who runs it with 12 fire?) but don't let the facts get in the way of your rant. Again, it's on a character with essentially 0 utility (unless you're running energizing winds on an oath shot trapper), paper armor, and not particularly robust energy management. It's extremely vulnerable to disruption. Strip the attunement, interrupt the glyph or glowing gaze, and the whole thing falls apart. Let's not even talk about hard counters like diversion or signet of humility here.

Quote:

And yes there are lots of counters im sure but there a only a small number you would want to fit into a 6/8 man team. Im pretty sure Winter/Mantra of Frost would work but I cant see that becoming the metagame yet. Dont just spam out counters without thinking please.

The counters listed are things that people already bring. Read before opening your mouth and you won't look so foolish in the future.

JR · Nov 03, 2006, 12:53 PM // 12:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lykan

[sarcasm]
A sustainable 91 damage every 2 seconds? No theres no way that's imbalanced.
[/sarcasm]

And yes there are lots of counters im sure but there a only a small number you would want to fit into a 6/8 man team. Im pretty sure Winter/Mantra of Frost would work but I cant see that becoming the metagame yet. Dont just spam out counters without thinking please.

Warriors can take interrupts, Mesmers can take interrupts, Monks can take interrupts, Rangers can take interrupts, Assassins can take interrupts... And by "can take" I mean very viably in any build. Enchantment removals for Fire Attunement can also fit on most Mesmer bars, and some Monk bars.

Why the HELL would you need Winter and Mantra of Frost to counter it? Especially since a large chunk of the damage is just from burning anyway, which is not effected by that combination.

Talk about posting counters without thinking.

Lykan · Nov 03, 2006, 01:05 PM // 13:05

Im just saying not a lot of builds will have enough counters to fully shutdown these guys. Sure all those guys can take interupts yeah, even monks if you have too, but it leaves your build open because you have to plan for SF every match.
(And winter/MF was joke, geez

)

Symbol · Nov 03, 2006, 01:26 PM // 13:26

What? Not a lot of builds will carry single enchant removals, distracting shot, or diversion? Because that's what you need to "fully shutdown" a SF ele. Interrupt/strip the attunement and he's pretty much gimped for 45 seconds. Divert searing flames and he's pretty much gimped for a minute. Yeah there are things you can do to minimize the chance of this happening, but once it does you're pretty much screwed. Unlike physical shutdown, there's nothing your teammates can do to help you once the counter lands. If you're hex stacked into uselessness as a warrior, you can wait for hex removal and you're back at 100%. Not true for a caster.

Rapture · Nov 03, 2006, 01:29 PM // 13:29

PH are running archane echo'd, dual attuned (yes) searing flames x4. The was some glyph of e-power in there too, but it looked like they pretty much decided its not worth the time (or maybe just the effort) of letting up on mashing your two copies of SF. It's disgusting.

They rolled over WM packing two copies of migraine like it was nothing. Sure there are counters to it, especially something as fragile as mimicry and dual attunements. Can you stand in their face long enough to apply them though?

Splitsville VoDfest? fun times.

Lykan · Nov 03, 2006, 01:29 PM // 13:29

Hmm well i'm talking about builds with multiple ele's which i've seen, not just one. I agree one will be easy to SD without difficulty.

Patrograd · Nov 03, 2006, 02:59 PM // 14:59

With regard to counters

Our current build has

2 copies of power drain
2 copies of blackout
2 copies of denchant
1 COF
1 distracting blow
1 HP
1 extinguish
Lots and lots of edenial
permanent "watch yourself"

You can only interrupt them for so long. Their attack skills recharge so much faster than the interrupts do.

Most caster team present us with no issues at all (the mind way build is a bit of a pain but manageable), even degen casters like tainted necros have given us no serious issues as we can shut them down totally.

Last night from our smurf guild we came across two of these searing heat builds one after the other. Previously searing heat had been manageable, so maybe you're right, maybe its not this skill per se that is broken, but the synergy it has with certain other skills that provide an unbalanced combination of utility and massive damage

Put one, for example, with the right kind of paragon and suddenly they lose their energy fragility and reliance on attunements, they lose their squishyness and become, frankly, really quite scary and practically untouchable. We couldnt think of anything we could have done differently tbh.

I guess diversion would help delay their damage, but I'm still at a bit of a loss as how to hurt them with one of our usual pressure units running flags, and another permanently spamming heal party (our flag runer is a fire ele)

Symbol · Nov 03, 2006, 04:05 PM // 16:05

Regular mesmer interrupts aren't going to be enough. They don't recharge fast enough to do more than annoy the SF guy as you've found out. Two drain enchants will be enough to take care of one SF ele pretty much permanently (maybe two if they don't carry a cover), without attunement they can't spam.

Diversion and distracting shot are really harsh though. Shut down either searing flames or glowing gaze and that ele is screwed for the next 20-60 seconds. An alternative is to sit a ranger with magebane shot on one of them, it recharges instantly if it interrupts and if they're constantly getting interrupted they aren't getting E back from their attunements.

Patrograd · Nov 03, 2006, 05:21 PM // 17:21

Swap mesmers for rangers?

Might be a plan, can do largely the same job in the build concept, and might be better in some ways...

JR · Nov 03, 2006, 05:32 PM // 17:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by Symbol

Regular mesmer interrupts aren't going to be enough. They don't recharge fast enough to do more than annoy the SF guy as you've found out.

Power Return can do a pretty decent job, and due to it's attribute can fit on nearly any Mesmers bar.

Ry Dia · Nov 03, 2006, 05:54 PM // 17:54

Power Return does a good job of being extremely annoying, but it just slows the damage some. I don't know about the SF builds with GoLE in them, but I've gotten Power Leaked a few times recently and that's really hurt.

Tortoise · Nov 03, 2006, 06:11 PM // 18:11

The fact that everyone and their sister are farming the ladder with either two copies of this or Rampage as One should say enough. Searing Flames + Glowing gaze already does more DPS then a warrior even when it consistently hits only one target! If you ball up for even four seconds your entire team can get slaughtered before your monks had time to blink.

The synergy the skill has with paragons just makes it entirely broken. With energizing finales and Aria's of Zeal going around the energy management on these characters isn't that problematic at all. Not too mention that 'they're on fire' provides the entire team with some very nifty defense.

Perhaps this really is just a passing phase in which the metagame needs some time to adapt but I do doubt it. Up with that recharge, I say.